tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2685698485860402737.post940587673128392080..comments2023-07-03T10:34:14.805-05:00Comments on Zombie Jesus: Sex and moneyUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2685698485860402737.post-4175776195851275712008-03-15T17:48:00.000-05:002008-03-15T17:48:00.000-05:00I have some flawed reform suggestions, but I'm...<b><i>I have some flawed reform suggestions, but I'm afraid you'd pick it apart to be argumentative rather than make improvements. If you'll agree to suspend the desire to debunk my ideology or win a debate, I'll offer them.</i></b><br><br>Just so we're clear, you're saying that you want the freedom to debunk my arguments and win a debate while denying me the opportunity to do the same. On my own personal blog. I'm afraid I can't in good conscience agree not to argue when I think you're in error, but I would sincerely love to hear your suggestions. In particular, I'm still very interested in learning what consequences you want to give criminals convicted of prostitution, since you oppose imprisonment and (apparently) fines. You said you want to offer them "alternatives," which I agree is a laudable goal, but if an act doesn't have legal consequences, I don't really understand in what sense it can be said to be illegal at all.Ryan McReynoldshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11333879625502795277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2685698485860402737.post-55471288030643306462008-03-14T18:33:00.000-05:002008-03-14T18:33:00.000-05:00If you don't support jailing sex workers, but ...<i>If you don't support jailing sex workers, but you think sex work should remain illegal, just what legal penalty should sex workers face? Fines?</i><br><br>Perhaps you didn't read it when I said, "I support offering sex workers alternatives. You can rightly argue that this makes laws against prostitution arbitrary, but these laws are to protect women from predators that would exploit them and their situations. I don't think these laws are to punish men for buying sex but protect women from selling themselves when they feel no other alternatives exist. <b>Yes, these laws need work, but they don't need repealing</b>."<br><br>Yes, illegal prostitution laws need reform. What reform, I don't know, but repealing them would do more harm than good. Prostitution laws suck for all the reasons we've collectively mentioned, but an absence of laws only give us more exploited women in marginally-nicer environments with the bonus of men thinking that exploiting women this way is acceptable- "Hey, teenage girl who just ran away from home- I know that you're hungry. I'll give you 20 bucks for sex, and then you can eat."<br><br>I have some flawed reform suggestions, but I'm afraid you'd pick it apart to be argumentative rather than make improvements. If you'll agree to suspend the desire to debunk my ideology or win a debate, I'll offer them. <br><br>Bottom line, this issue has been around for thousands of years. While the details differ, I know undoubtably that repealing laws against prostitution and thus legitimizing and expanding it will do more harm than good for women.JacqueFromTexashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16188690301652938376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2685698485860402737.post-59982935842389032862008-03-14T18:06:00.000-05:002008-03-14T18:06:00.000-05:00I don't support throwing sex workers in jail.I...<b><i>I don't support throwing sex workers in jail.</i></b><br><br>If you don't support jailing sex workers, but you think sex work should remain illegal, just what legal penalty should sex workers face? Fines?Ryan McReynoldshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11333879625502795277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2685698485860402737.post-85174772454955830332008-03-14T17:58:00.000-05:002008-03-14T17:58:00.000-05:00I can't help but wonder if you actually read m...<i>I can't help but wonder if you actually read my post, since I said pretty much the same thing you did despite coming to the opposite conclusion.</i><br><br>Nope- I read it. I don't think our positions are similar at all, but fundamentally different. I don't think abusing women is a capitalist ideal, that stigmatized sex is the issue (many, many folks that have very liberal views on sex wouldn't consider selling their bodies- it's a sign of desperation in most cases), or that women are subjected to abuse in other forms of work- I'm a statistician, and I've never been physically assaulted, verbally degraded with terms like "bitch" and "whore" in any of my workplaces. Even if I were relatively unskilled and working at a Denny's, I doubt customers would regularly try to grab my breasts and call out horrible epithets. I think the issues women in the sex industry deal with are unique to the sex industry and they are inherent, legal or not (hence my example with stripping). I think this very much is <i>the</i> argument against prostitution- it hurts those directly involved, especially the most vulnerable. <br><br><i>We can still help sex workers in the very ways you favor without additionally throwing them in jail.</i><br><br>I agree! But not without legitimizing and expanding the exploitation. That's the key difference and it's a big one.<br>You recognize to a degree that these women are exploited- but you favor making the exploitation a bit easier to swallow. That's like saying, "Let's not give women equal pay for equal work, but we'll give them safer, more comfortable workplaces." It's still unjust. Prostitution is inherently unjust.<br><br>I don't support throwing sex workers in jail. I support offering sex workers alternatives. You can rightly argue that this makes laws against prostitution arbitrary, but these laws are to protect women from predators that would exploit them and their situations. I don't think these laws are to punish men for buying sex but protect women from selling themselves when they feel no other alternatives exist. Yes, these laws need work, but they don't need repealing.<br><br>I hate that the current law begets conditions as they are- and that prostitutes can't seek help from police officers without fear of prosecution- much like female illegal immigrants who are victims of domestic violence. We agree that women deserve protection regardless of what they do and where they're from- but this protection can be extended without legitimizing and thus <i>expanding</i> exploitation. Maybe if prostitution is legalized, the women will be exploited in safer conditions---but many more women will be exploited and many more men will believe that since it is legal, that it's somehow okay to exploit women. Making prostitution legal doesn't protect prostitutes at all, but only assures that their will be more of the coercion and abuse since more of the activity is going on and it's government sanctioned.<br><br>If prostitution were like drugs and people of both genders were exploiting each other equally left and right, yep- legalize it. I don't have to agree with the moral rightness of it, since they are only hurting themselves. But prostitution victimizes women disportionately, women who are already victims. I can't let that happen.JacqueFromTexashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16188690301652938376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2685698485860402737.post-19525421416750206982008-03-14T13:16:00.000-05:002008-03-14T13:16:00.000-05:00I can't help but wonder if you actually read m...I can't help but wonder if you actually read my post, since I said pretty much the same thing you did despite coming to the opposite conclusion. My view is that any problems with prostitution (such as financial necessity, coercion, and abuse) are equally real whether the work is legal or not, a reflection of the structure and character of society -- and therefore, there is no reason to add the additional burden of criminality on top of the other issues facing sex workers. We can still help sex workers in the very ways you favor without additionally throwing them in jail.Ryan McReynoldshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11333879625502795277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2685698485860402737.post-64091862064407463442008-03-14T13:09:00.000-05:002008-03-14T13:09:00.000-05:00The legalization of prostitution would simply legi...The legalization of prostitution would simply legitimize the exploitation of women- a huge social injustice.<br><br>As a libertarian, I once held the view that consensual sex between adults is a civil liberty. In principle, that makes sense, but in reality, prostitution is more coercive than consensual. <br><br>Did you know that somewhere between 60-80% of sex workers are survivors of childhood sexual abuse? They work in the industry to exert some sort of control over sex that was taken from them- they reenact their trauma in order (common PTSD) and being exploited feels normal to them. Being degraded feels like home. This is exploitation, as much as you desire to act like it's a business transaction. <br><br>Let's also look at a study of strippers (not prostitutes, mind you, but still considered sex workers and LEGAL, like you suggest prostitution should be). Studies show that mental illness is prevalent. 55% of strippers have borderline personality disorder, 35% have multiple personality disorder and 60% have major depressive episodes. I think we'd agree that buying sex from a women with mental retardation is rape. How is buying sex from a mentally ill woman not rape as well? <br><br>Let's also look at the damage legal sex work does to women involved- 100% of strippers reported some abuse on the job, physical or verbal. 70% report being followed home and 42% admit being stalked. Bouncers may protect women at the club, but not at home- They are vulnerable to rape. And with the case of prostition- would raping prostitutes be rape or theft? It's rape of course, but this is why sex can't be a business transaction- just the same a surrogate motherhood or egg donation. All the above exploit women. <br><br>Moreover, as much as we like to think prositution is high-end male escorts and pricey courtesans, the reality is that many women choose this lifestyles as an alternative to homelessness or starvation. The use it to support a self-destructive substance abuse habit (around 40% admit abusing drugs and alcohol). If a woman has to choose between going hungry or having sex with a stranger (possibly acquirring a disease), how is that not exploiting her poverty? These women deserve help not regulation of their exploitation. <br><br>Although in principle and pragmatically, legalization looks like a good idea, like social workers protect children from abuse, shouldn't we extend some real help to women, helping them escape exploitation rather than making exploitation slightly more pleasant? <br><br>That's why I can't agree- Women deserve better.JacqueFromTexashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16188690301652938376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2685698485860402737.post-32392131801043109722008-03-14T12:17:00.000-05:002008-03-14T12:17:00.000-05:00Great post. Adding to this, a recent survey of pro...Great post. Adding to this, a recent survey of prostitutes showed that 95% would rather be doing something else. That's very telling -- and I think your post touched upon some of the reasons why, including negative social perceptions. <br><br>I've also wanted to post about this case, but from the perspective of cultural norms as they pertain to monogamy and the imposition this imposes on those men and women who would prefer more polyamorous arrangements.Georgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13003484633933455827noreply@blogger.com